Makers Section
Makers Section
Feel free to boo hoo this suggestion, but I was wondering what folks think about having a section (or sub-section) dedicated to makers. The idea would be to take a shakuhachi maker, provide some background on them, rough price range of their instruments, some pics of their work, and then a rough rating based on criteria such as tonal quality, aesthetics, etc.
I mention this as many people not in Japan (and possibly some who are) see all these different makers and have no clue who most of them are and if their shakuhachi are something worth investing in. With so many options it is difficult to know.
For example, on the japanshakuhachi website, there are several makers, some perhaps better known than others. The maker Hozan's work looks stunningly beautiful, with a price tag to match. I'm sure someone looking to drop 5K would be curious to come by the forum and see what other players with knowledge of that makers work had to say about it.
I figure this could be a good resource for players interested in purchasing new (or used) shakuhachi. It would provide people with more information and could even be good for the makers too, if their work is good. Probably some makers work is over-priced for what you get, while others is a great deal. As always, this would essentially be a compliation of opinions around a particular maker and their work, so should be treated as subjective for the most part. That being said, I think there is a real use for this type of thing.
Just an idea to put out there for consideration.
Lorka
I mention this as many people not in Japan (and possibly some who are) see all these different makers and have no clue who most of them are and if their shakuhachi are something worth investing in. With so many options it is difficult to know.
For example, on the japanshakuhachi website, there are several makers, some perhaps better known than others. The maker Hozan's work looks stunningly beautiful, with a price tag to match. I'm sure someone looking to drop 5K would be curious to come by the forum and see what other players with knowledge of that makers work had to say about it.
I figure this could be a good resource for players interested in purchasing new (or used) shakuhachi. It would provide people with more information and could even be good for the makers too, if their work is good. Probably some makers work is over-priced for what you get, while others is a great deal. As always, this would essentially be a compliation of opinions around a particular maker and their work, so should be treated as subjective for the most part. That being said, I think there is a real use for this type of thing.
Just an idea to put out there for consideration.
Lorka
Lorka, it is a good idea.
Presently, we are migrating the ESS website to a new domain host and rebuilding the site. I was thinking of having a section with makers on the new website as well as a teachers' section. The teachers' section would probably be mainly European... but let's see how it goes. But since people buy flutes from makers all over the world, I would like to make a list of makers, a very short description about their work (which the write themselves) and then links to their websites. I think it is ver important to have a list so that people who may not know the "scene" yet know what choices they have.
Would this do? I have the feeling this is more suited on a website where you can either categorise the makers alphabetically or after country or the like instead of a long list of posts with different names and opinions. It is up for negotiation of course.
Presently, we are migrating the ESS website to a new domain host and rebuilding the site. I was thinking of having a section with makers on the new website as well as a teachers' section. The teachers' section would probably be mainly European... but let's see how it goes. But since people buy flutes from makers all over the world, I would like to make a list of makers, a very short description about their work (which the write themselves) and then links to their websites. I think it is ver important to have a list so that people who may not know the "scene" yet know what choices they have.
Would this do? I have the feeling this is more suited on a website where you can either categorise the makers alphabetically or after country or the like instead of a long list of posts with different names and opinions. It is up for negotiation of course.
Hey Kiku, that sounds pretty good. I must say, however, that I am much more interested in what customers and shakuhachi professionals have to say about a maker than what the actual maker has to say about themselves. In other words, I am looking to benefit from the advice and knowledge of other players, rather than hearing various types of sales pitches from makers.
Ok, I see what you mean.... it might be tricky though on a forum to directly criticise a maker... I mean we have some rules here about not saying bad things about each other... at the same time as I totally understand what you are saying.
we had the same discussion at the ESS AGM in August where a maker wanted some action taken towards someone who did not pay flutes he bought (not only one or two and from several makers).... but ESS can't write anything bad about him... and in reality we can't really do that on the forum either... The problem with a forum is that everything stays here. If a bad review is written, it will stay...
I don't know how to get around this problem. Ideas?
we had the same discussion at the ESS AGM in August where a maker wanted some action taken towards someone who did not pay flutes he bought (not only one or two and from several makers).... but ESS can't write anything bad about him... and in reality we can't really do that on the forum either... The problem with a forum is that everything stays here. If a bad review is written, it will stay...
I don't know how to get around this problem. Ideas?
Perhaps my wording led you to think that I was looking for negative criticism, which was far from the case. I was just cautioning against the kinds of distortions that can come about when a maker is advertising. My feeling is that a maker puts something out there, charges a certain amount for their work, and it is fair for any prospective buyer to ask, "what are the qualities that make this worth the asking price". Makers create tangible things, whose qualities can be assessed (in general), and whose relative monetary value can be discussed. There are many things that cannot be disucssed (and we shall remain silent on those things).
Coming at it a different way, we have no problems discussing the quality of the work of dead makers, so my feeling is that makers who are still alive should have no problem with their work being commented on. The idea is to get a sense of the general type of shakuhachi a particular maker produces, with an eye to their sonic and tonal characteristics, as well as aesthetics and overall quality. Of course, one could provide specific examples. Again, the idea would be to phrase things in a constructive way. For example, I see the maker Shinzan on mejiro charges around 1 million yen. Not that I could afford these, but it would be nice to know what others who own, or have played these (very beautiful) flutes have to say about them.
I'm sure it would be possible to accomplish this without direct criticism (in the negative sense of the word).
Coming at it a different way, we have no problems discussing the quality of the work of dead makers, so my feeling is that makers who are still alive should have no problem with their work being commented on. The idea is to get a sense of the general type of shakuhachi a particular maker produces, with an eye to their sonic and tonal characteristics, as well as aesthetics and overall quality. Of course, one could provide specific examples. Again, the idea would be to phrase things in a constructive way. For example, I see the maker Shinzan on mejiro charges around 1 million yen. Not that I could afford these, but it would be nice to know what others who own, or have played these (very beautiful) flutes have to say about them.
I'm sure it would be possible to accomplish this without direct criticism (in the negative sense of the word).
I understand the idea but I also have a bad feeling about this. The best way to get an opinion about a maker is to try his instruments, if possible in the presence of a "pro". Comments (positive, negative, constructive...) on a forum will only reflect highly subjective impressions, each with its personal aesthetic taste. And as Kiku said, these comments, whatever their value, will stay visible on the forum.
Hi JF,
You are, of course, most correct. The best way to learn about an instrument is to try it, have a pro try it out, or even better, have a pro try it out while you are there. That being said, unless you happen to be a pro yourself, you are not too likely to get the chance to go on some sort of shakuhachi buffet. As such, knowledge of different makers becomes rather isolated. The suggestion was mainly informational. As you know, sometimes the best feedback is from customers/clients/ or whatever you call someone who buys a shakuhachi.
In an ideal situation I think this would work out fine, but your bad feeling is probably in anticipation to the tsunami of stupidity that can swell up when one person posts a thoughtless, or incendiary attack for personal reasons. It only takes one person to say "that maker is an effing thief, and their work sucks" and hey presto, the whole effort goes into the toilet.
I'm not sure I have a right answer, or if one exists that would work. That's a shame really, as knowledge of different makers is something I feel that other shakuhachi lovers would like to know more about (I know I would).
I suppose the only viable option would be for makers that are dead and gone, but whose products live on. It would be nice to see examples of some of the work of "classical" makers whose shakuhachi have stood the test of time. This option would probably avoid any ego-bruising that may occur. That, or we could drop the whole idea, but I think it has some merit.
You are, of course, most correct. The best way to learn about an instrument is to try it, have a pro try it out, or even better, have a pro try it out while you are there. That being said, unless you happen to be a pro yourself, you are not too likely to get the chance to go on some sort of shakuhachi buffet. As such, knowledge of different makers becomes rather isolated. The suggestion was mainly informational. As you know, sometimes the best feedback is from customers/clients/ or whatever you call someone who buys a shakuhachi.
In an ideal situation I think this would work out fine, but your bad feeling is probably in anticipation to the tsunami of stupidity that can swell up when one person posts a thoughtless, or incendiary attack for personal reasons. It only takes one person to say "that maker is an effing thief, and their work sucks" and hey presto, the whole effort goes into the toilet.
I'm not sure I have a right answer, or if one exists that would work. That's a shame really, as knowledge of different makers is something I feel that other shakuhachi lovers would like to know more about (I know I would).
I suppose the only viable option would be for makers that are dead and gone, but whose products live on. It would be nice to see examples of some of the work of "classical" makers whose shakuhachi have stood the test of time. This option would probably avoid any ego-bruising that may occur. That, or we could drop the whole idea, but I think it has some merit.
I would also in one way like to have such a space where you can freely criticise or praise a piece of work by a shakuhachi maker. But it is very tricky!
The problem is that it is so subjective. I know that many pro players would hate my favourite shakuhachi because we are looking for different things. And I would hate a player to tell the world he/she hates my shakuhachi because it can't do what it for example was not made to be able to do or sound like.
The only space I could see such a place is a private blog or the like where you can create a space where people can both come with complaints and compliments so to speak.
It cannot be on space provided by ESS because otherwise the ESS would allow judgements and thereby become a judging unit.... and it is better for the ESS not to go down that road - I think. But the ESS could provide advice. There are people emailing the ESS asking for advice on shakuhachi purchase.
But Lorka, it is an important aspect you raise. The best would be to contact a player directly for advice, especially if the person has a favourite player he/she would like to sound like....
The problem is that it is so subjective. I know that many pro players would hate my favourite shakuhachi because we are looking for different things. And I would hate a player to tell the world he/she hates my shakuhachi because it can't do what it for example was not made to be able to do or sound like.
The only space I could see such a place is a private blog or the like where you can create a space where people can both come with complaints and compliments so to speak.
It cannot be on space provided by ESS because otherwise the ESS would allow judgements and thereby become a judging unit.... and it is better for the ESS not to go down that road - I think. But the ESS could provide advice. There are people emailing the ESS asking for advice on shakuhachi purchase.
But Lorka, it is an important aspect you raise. The best would be to contact a player directly for advice, especially if the person has a favourite player he/she would like to sound like....
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